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    Fortress Defenses

    As many already know, fortress defenses are pretty much a counter intuitive feature as it is and only harm the person having them. Not only having them results in you losing more resources long term due to suffering through big attacks every 24 hours (instead of losing pretty much nothing and having the protection refreshed), but they also result in weakening your ability to farm resources and gain honor through counter attacks.
    Now as long as you can decide to just not recruit those units, the feature is just useless and ridiculous, but there is a point where it becomes gamebreaking.

    We all know endgame S&F is pretty boring, but there is still a couple things to play for, you can invest in your attributes, keeper and gain fortress honor endlessly, which gives you 3 ladders to compete in. Thing is, when you play long enough and develop your fortress fully (which is a natural course of action, as you want to enable yourself with progressing gem mine and getting those last achievements) you actually end up permanently crippling yourself. People no longer attack you all the time cause of the Wall alone and you start losing resources more, start gaining them less and more importantly - you're no longer able to compete in the Fortress ladder properly. I think the max level Wall as it is now is gamebreaking. You need to develop it to max to naturally progress in the game, and you end up excluding yourself from competition in 1 of 3 aspects left in the game.
    In my opinion it requires a change.

    Best thing to do here is probably deleting all those 3 buildings completely (Wall, Mage Tower, Archer's Guild) as it is a useless feature to say the least and finally getting rid of it would make the game elegant.

    Second best thing is to keep the feature useless and not gamebreaking by enabling players to decide on not having defenses (that solution requires stripping Wall from its own defensive value and making it rather a feature that amplifies power of recruited archers and mages)

    Third thing (that one is risky, cause you don't want to strip players of their earned up to date progress, therefore don't want to make already collected Fortress Honor mean less than it is now)
    That would adjust the Honor gains in a manner where defenses mean something and getting invaded actually hurts you
    So potentially increasing honor gain for a attack win from 1 to 3
    and increasing honor loss for being attacked (succesfully) from 0 to 2.
    But it's important to be aware that the 3rd solution would also further benefit those that already grind honor fortress by using bots. (they get their honor from the refresh every 5 minutes mechanic rather than counter)

    I personally advocate for option 1, but being realistic and seeing how devs would not want to get rid of content they've put in work to develop, option 2 would at least restore some sense in lategame SF (and should also be very easy from programming point of view). As it is, the conflict of interest and punishment for trying to fully complete certain parts of the game/content resulting in a permanent disability to then compete in 1 of the ladders is just something that can't be.
    Last edited by Bachor Gray; 23 April 2019, 09:35 PM.

    #2
    I'm 100% sure that playa developers still don't get your point after people spent years trying to have a change in those features.

    They are convinced that building defences is the right way to play

    Comment


      #3
      I've done some googling and a brief research on those previous posts about Fortress and I believe none of them touched on what I'm talking about here,
      resources have been talked about in the past on the forum, people were bringing up mostly the protection issue and as much as I agree, that it's optimal to not recruit archers and mages (which makes the feature pointless) it's not the heaviest of issues as long as you can just refuse to recruit them.
      Technically then, it's not as much a problem as it is bad design.
      Also, lets keep in mind that before the ability to develop gem mine beyond 20 was introduced not that long ago, resources were becoming useless relatively soon into the game progression.
      Right now it is a problem, and most importantly, there is no workaround.
      It's natural for you to want to complete achievements,
      it's natural for you to want to progress fortress to max in order to keep up with other players and their gems, you can't level mine beyond 20 without completing the fortress first, thing is - when you do complete it - you are permanently ruined and there is no loophole for you, you can't just disable/stop recruiting the Wall, and the lvl 20 Wall is enough to discourage players from attacking you, which prevents you from doing Counters and compete with the hardcore Fortress Hall of Fame players, some might say that rank is tedious (but please remember this is a browser game, so I disagree that there is an issue with 'grindy' character of that ladder) and that ladder is one of VERY FEW things left to do in the late game. It's essential for you to be able to progress with fortress, achievements and gem mine and it's wrong that progressing excludes you from 1 of 3 ladders the game revolves around (noticably, the only ladder that isn't supported by pay2win mechanic).
      It was never been discussed before.

      @edit
      One more thing.
      I'm not sure Playa rejected proposals of changes to Fortress Defenses in the past.
      From what I've seen, all the previous threads/discussions about it did a pretty poor job describing the issue and didn't even attract Leanders attention, none of those posts in the past actually proposed any solutions and therefore nothing was forwarded.
      Last edited by Bachor Gray; 23 April 2019, 10:43 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        Deleting buildings won't be implemented. The purpose of fortifications isn't to keep others from attacking you entriely but making it more difficult. Same for the scouts and mages.
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          #5
          Originally posted by Leander View Post
          Deleting buildings won't be implemented. The purpose of fortifications isn't to keep others from attacking you entriely but making it more difficult. Same for the scouts and mages.
          Yes i suspected it won't be.

          We all know what the current purpose of the fortifications is.

          The problem with it is that this very purpose works to disadvantage of the player that builds it, when obviously it should be the other way around. That's what this thread is about, that's what i stressed multiple times.

          My whole post is about the fact that the way Hall of Fame works is not consistent with the idea of not being attacked being desirable,

          not consistent with "making it more difficult" as you put it, being a good thing.

          Current state of Fortress Hall of Fame clearly creates an environment where being attacked is desirable, so making it more difficult works against you.

          So the key question is:
          Are we gonna pretend that it's perfectly okay for players to be forced into that awful position of having to take actions against their best interest in order to complete Achievements and be able to proceed with Gem Mine beyond 20 or are we gonna agree that this is in fact an issue?

          Could you please address exactly that in your response, and not ignore everything I'm basically trying to talk about here?
          Last edited by Bachor Gray; 24 April 2019, 04:56 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            After Leanders' reply you got my point dear Bachor

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Gully View Post
              After Leanders' reply you got my point dear Bachor
              I'm scared that I do haha, but I'm still willing to give him benefit of the doubt and say that he didn't read my post entirely. Maybe focusing directly on that last question will finally make him realise what it's about and how the current state is broken.

              Comment


                #8
                Its funny how you suggest very complicated and complex solutions (which can lead to complete chaos in system) only not to ruin your personal strategy (not to mention you completely forget old servers). If the problem is so big, lets make easy solution and remove counterattack completely. Then you will not desire to be attacked and evenrything will be fine, right?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bortas View Post
                  Its funny how you suggest very complicated and complex solutions (which can lead to complete chaos in system) only not to ruin your personal strategy (not to mention you completely forget old servers). If the problem is so big, lets make easy solution and remove counterattack completely. Then you will not desire to be attacked and evenrything will be fine, right?
                  Absolutely. That works as well.
                  Believe me I simply didn't think of that, don't assume bad faith on my part.
                  I didn't think of old servers cause I've never played on any.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Well, on old servers it's the exact same

                    We are maxed out and we just attack people maxed out without defences, 10 warriors win against maxed walls.


                    If i need wood/stone i coordinate a big attack w/ a guildmate

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gully View Post
                      Well, on old servers it's the exact same

                      We are maxed out and we just attack people maxed out without defences, 10 warriors win against maxed walls.


                      If i need wood/stone i coordinate a big attack w/ a guildmate
                      exactly, so that excludes you from competition versus players that have no wall and can counter attack among each other with 1 honor to 1 soldier ratio
                      which means, you are punished for completing fortress content and getting that achievement and getting that ability to proceed with gem mine

                      the whole thread is about the fact that we should have design that doesn't punish you for progressing, cause the one we have now is absurd and gamebreaking

                      the defensive features should exist only when there is punishment from getting invaded, right now - there is a reward instead

                      so if there is a reward instead, those features are pointless and designed badly to say the least, but as long as you can choose 'not to recruit' they remain useless and harmless
                      the moment other factors, (like Achievement for completing fortress and necessity to do it to proceed with Gem Mine for better Gems required in the other parts of gameplay) force you to develop those harmful features (Fortification, that is "a recruited unit 24/7" whether you want it or not) is the moment game becomes broken, bugged and it needs fixing


                      the best solution is to finally introduce punishment for getting invaded to make those defensive features sensible (but it seems to me that solution isn't on the cards, cause it was talked about before)

                      the next best solution is to at least make those harmless to the one that makes them. so we can't have the Wall hurting our ability to gain honor in Fortress HoF.
                      that solution is either obtained by


                      a) deleting Counterattack ability, like proposed by a person in this thread
                      b) mine option 2 proposed in the original post, which is making the Wall a percentage buff scaling the power of Archers and Mages that are already recruited, rather than it being a Unit that fights on its own [that way we maintain a players right to decide not to recruit defenses, despite progressing buildings, like we have with mages and archers and their respective buildings] and we maintain its defensive utility, that seems important to Playa in their detached point of view that says "it's worth it to defend your fortress"
                      c) introducing honor loss for getting invaded, to channel HoF progress into fights inititated through 5 minutes refreshes, rather than through Counters
                      Last edited by Bachor Gray; 24 April 2019, 06:06 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm with you man.

                        On old servers everyone is maxed out, so noone has walls level 0 and the competition is "fair"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Disabling Wall would solve all of the issues. Should be an option AFTER you have wall level 10.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Lumidee View Post
                            Disabling Wall would solve all of the issues. Should be an option AFTER you have wall level 10.
                            it is a bit 'unrealistic' from RPG point of view, which is why Playa might not be okay with this. - that might be too goofy, even for SF

                            I think making it a percentage buff/amplifier to recruited units is more sensible for that reason and serves the same purpose in terms of fixing the issue,
                            also from RPG point of view it's even more sensible than it is now, after all Wall alone is a tool to be used by defenders and help them rather than 'fight on its own'
                            Last edited by Bachor Gray; 24 April 2019, 08:14 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bachor Gray View Post
                              it is a bit 'unrealistic' from RPG point of view, which is why Playa might not be okay with this. - that might be too goofy, even for SF

                              I think making it a percentage buff/amplifier to recruited units is more sensible for that reason and serves the same purpose in terms of fixing the issue,
                              also from RPG point of view it's even more sensible than it is now, after all Wall alone is a tool to be used by defenders and help them rather than 'fight on its own'
                              Yeah, walls are OP.

                              Nerf pls

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