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-   -   PvP: Warrior vs. Mage (http://forum-int.sfgame.net/showthread.php?t=5941)

Asinoeh 22nd November 2016 04:00 PM

PvP: Warrior vs. Mage
 
I am a relatively new player to S&F, but already I have frequently encountered the notion that at high levels (300+ ?) warriors have a very good PvP matchup against mages. Now I would like to know why this is supposed to be so, since the numbers (as far as I know them) do not support this:

Warrior: 2x weapon dmg modifier, 5x hp modifier, 50% armor, 25% block
Mage: 4.5x weapon dmg modifier, 2x hp modifier, 10% armor, attacks can not be dodged/blocked and ignore armor
Scout: 2.5x weapon dmg modifier, 4x hp modifier, 25% armor, 50% dodge

So when a mage attacks a warrior his damage multiplier is 4.5(weapon)
When a warrior attacks a mage his damage multiplier is 2(weapon) * 0,9(mage's armor) = 1.8
Overall the mage does 2.5 times the damage of the warrior.
In turn the warrior has 2.5 times the hp of the mage.

Therefore assuming equal base stats this should be exactly a 50:50 matchup.

What am I missing?

banexx91 22nd November 2016 05:15 PM

Mage have more dmg power for same stats...for example...if warrior have 100 str and mage have 100int...that 100int maybe have 250 dmg and 100 str have 120dmg...so it balanced...also shield not work on mage attacks...

hexblot 23rd November 2016 12:17 PM

I think the big thing here is the effect of potions.

Since a warrior has huge a HP pool, getting +25% from XXL constitution potion, and another +25% from an eternal life potion gives them enough HP to withstand enough to beat mages.

Add to that the personal portal, which is typically around +30% more at those levels and roughly a %15% from pets... well, you get warriors that have more than 30M HP relatively easy.

For mages, to overcome all that you need damage, since you HP pool buildup is abysmal. However the deciding factor in your damage is not your stats - the main ingredient is your weapon. You may have 20k Int, and a mediocre weapon and be beaten to pulp, or 16k Int and a GOOD weapon and prevail. Damage is increased % by the Guild portal, which is not based on personal effort (both a good and a bad thing depending on your guild progress).

( NOTE: I always assume 50% crit chance for both sides here, as being 300+ and NOT having that is a whole other problem! )

TL; DR:
it's easier for warriors to build HP pools than mages to build damage, since the former mainly requires good stats from all items and get % bonuses from everywhere, whereas the later requires a good weapon.


Edit:
Let's add a practical example, for two ~350 characters:
Warrior: 18k strength, 5k Int, 15k Con, 9k Luck -- Potions: XXL Str, Con, POEL -- Weapon damage: ~840
Mage: 5k Strength, 18k Int, 12k Con, 9k Luck -- Postions: XXL Int, Con, POEL -- Weapon damage: ~1940

Let's further assume they belong to the same guild, with 20% damage bonus, and have both earned 30% hp bonus. Furthermore both have 17 Con pets.

Warrior: Damage is 1.8M, HP are 42M
Mage: Damage is 4.2M, HP are 13,5M

In a simulated, non-crit and non-exponential round fight, warrior needs 8 hits to smash the mage, whereas the mage needs 10 hits to obliterate the warrior.

Of course this is over simplified, since you have weapon ranges instead of constant values (and the warrior might have a smaller range weapon while the mage a larger one adding more discrepancy, etc etc), and crits are an entirely random factor even when both are at 50%.

The thing is that the mage will need more luck ( in terms of their weapon range and crits ) than the warrior, who depends more on soaking the damage than dealing it quickly.

Viral 23rd November 2016 01:58 PM

Do not forget about the stone scissors paper system, the warrior has an advantage over the magician, the magician of the scout, scout well, over the soldier.
Sorry for my english, it's Google translator)

Eggman95 23rd November 2016 04:15 PM

Comparing those formulas doesn´t consider how the char is skilled.

Lets assume we have a character of every class with the same sum of main-attribute and constitution, importent is the propotion between main-attribute and constitution.

Scouts and mages tend to skill/have main-attribute and constitution 2:1 and warriors often tend to skill/have 1:1. Those ratios give warriors some advantage:
1:1 --> 0.5*0.5 = 0.25
2:1 --> 0.67*0.33 = 0.2211

hexblot 25th November 2016 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eggman95 (Post 46527)
Comparing those formulas doesn´t consider how the char is skilled.

Lets assume we have a character of every class with the same sum of main-attribute and constitution, importent is the propotion between main-attribute and constitution.

Scouts and mages tend to skill/have main-attribute and constitution 2:1 and warriors often tend to skill/have 1:1. Those ratios give warriors some advantage:
1:1 --> 0.5*0.5 = 0.25
2:1 --> 0.67*0.33 = 0.2211

Even if the skill distribution is equal, the bonus system is all % based, which gives the Warrior a great advantage in later levels.

Since their have a multiplier of 5, likely bonuses ( 25% from potion of eternal life and 30% from personal portal ) give a much larger absolute value than for other classes

Assuming that after pet, equipment and potion to con bonus all classes have 15000 constitution at level 350 ( quite unlikely for the non-warriors, so calculation with a more probable 12000 in parens):
- Mage: 10,530,000 HP (8,424,000 HP)
- Scout: 21,060,000 HP (16,848,000 HP)
- Warrior: 26,325,000 HP

With Potion of Eternal Life and a 30% portal bonus (again in parens the bonus from parens above):

- Mage: 17,111,250 HP (13,689,000HP)
- Scout: 34,222,500 HP (27,378,000HP)
- Warrior: 42,778,125 HP

The effect is clearly visible - % bonuses play a huge role in those levels. I don't see that as a problem, it's just the way the game is supposed to be.

Asinoeh 12th December 2016 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hexblot (Post 46522)
I think the big thing here is the effect of potions.
Let's add a practical example, for two ~350 characters:
Warrior: 18k strength, 5k Int, 15k Con, 9k Luck -- Potions: XXL Str, Con, POEL -- Weapon damage: ~840
Mage: 5k Strength, 18k Int, 12k Con, 9k Luck -- Postions: XXL Int, Con, POEL -- Weapon damage: ~1940

Let's further assume they belong to the same guild, with 20% damage bonus, and have both earned 30% hp bonus. Furthermore both have 17 Con pets.

Warrior: Damage is 1.8M, HP are 42M
Mage: Damage is 4.2M, HP are 13,5M

In a simulated, non-crit and non-exponential round fight, warrior needs 8 hits to smash the mage, whereas the mage needs 10 hits to obliterate the warrior.

In your example Warrior and Mage have the same main stat value 18k, the same defense stat value (5k), but for some reason you give the warrior 15k con while the mage gets only 12k, with no compensation in another area. I would not call this a fair example.

At the very least the mage should get some boost to Int or Strength, but to keep thing simple lets give the mage 15k con as well to put both on an equal footing.

This gives us the following modified numbers:

Warrior: Damage is 1.8M, HP are 42M
Mage: Damage is 4.2M, HP are 16,9M

and now both need 10 hits to nix the other, which gives exactly the 50:50 odds I was assuming should be there.

GeorgeKen 12th December 2016 06:44 PM

warrior > mage > scout > warrior (assuming the stats are the same)

End of story, whatever else you read or hear is just whining.

Edit: Also, a lot of people (like asinoeh above) compare the stats and calculate 50:50 odds between mage and warrior. What they don't take in mind is the critical strikes, where mages get an advantage over warriors cause their damage is higher and thus benefit more from the crits.

Asinoeh 15th December 2016 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeKen (Post 46658)
warrior > mage > scout > warrior (assuming the stats are the same)

See, that's the thing, I hear resp. read this everywhere but so far no one was able to give a conclusive explanation as to why that is supposed to be so except for some general hand waving ridden with fallacies. The one attempt using actual numbers did the exact opposite, it supported the 50:50 thesis.

Like your mention of crits. Yes, a mage crit does more damage than a warrior crit. To exactly the same extent a mage normal hit does more damage than a warrior normal hit. Which they need to do to compensate for the lower HP pool of mages.

hexblot 15th December 2016 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asinoeh (Post 46684)
See, that's the thing, I hear resp. read this everywhere but so far no one was able to give a conclusive explanation as to why that is supposed to be so except for some general hand waving ridden with fallacies. The one attempt using actual numbers did the exact opposite, it supported the 50:50 thesis.

Like your mention of crits. Yes, a mage crit does more damage than a warrior crit. To exactly the same extent a mage normal hit does more damage than a warrior normal hit. Which they need to do to compensate for the lower HP pool of mages.

Forgive my flawed attempt at making an example, but it is typical for mages to focus on their main stat, while warriors split their focus between CON and main stat.

The reason is because their HP pool is greatly boosted for each CON point - all bonuses to HP are % bonuses, and thus for each level they outgrow your damage potential.

As for the stat difference - it IS typical to see warriors with 18k STR and 15K CON, but VERY non-typical to see a Mage with 15k CON (at that level range). One of the reasons is that they have an extra item slot! Thus a good shield in that level has ~500 tri-stat, and can be relatively easily socketed with a 500 gem or a 250 black gem, multiplied by all other factors. Don't forget that at these levels, you are likely to only have capped your main stat (10M point cost) whereas the rest will be cheaper, making an even wider gap. It may not be 18k/15k vs 18k/12k, but the difference will be close enough.


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