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  #1  
Old 19th April 2011, 02:47 PM
Xodidumdum Xodidumdum is offline
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Default Luck epics

Has anyone else noticed how useless these things appear to be, and that they, in fact, hamper the person wearing them?

I've noticed now, across several servers in the US and DE, that not a single person ranked among people higher than their level, or with a high dungeons completed/level ratio is wearing even a single +luck epic, let alone a luck piece.

Is the stat not functioning correctly or something? or has anyone else noticed how, by swapping a luck epic for even a less than 1.8xlevel main attribute item, their performance in battles and against dungeon monsters improves?

Were luck items created mechanically poorly? or as a trap for people stupid enough to wear them or something?

I've now run over 30,000 data points into a f-model and I have found that luck is less than 10% as effective as claimed on the character sheet. The margin for error at that great a number of data points for criticals is less than .000000000001% when used in comparison to what the sheet is saying. (i.e it would be the statistical equivalent of telling someone a coin isn't rigged to occur more heads than tails if 1000 flips results in 950 heads, 50 tails). Running it as a probabalistic matrix actually results in a statistical 0, because it actually creates a positive i value.
  #2  
Old 19th April 2011, 03:20 PM
sWiTcHeR sWiTcHeR is offline
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yo xodi, reading your expert advice sometimes makes me feel like i'm about to witness some quantam shit!

i personally hate luck items but if you look at demon who's in the top 12, he has a +945 epic luck item so im assuming it must be working for him

youve run 30ooo data points in an f-model.... err, what does that mean exactly?

i love you though
  #3  
Old 19th April 2011, 04:14 PM
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ScrawnyRat ScrawnyRat is offline
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It's not that luck doesn't work, it's that it doesn't do enough. Often I'll get a "critical" hit in arena/dungeon that does less damage than a normal one. That's not worth giving up points in your primary stat - it's generally better (in my experience) to just deal more damage with your non-critical swings. That way, beating dungeon mobs comes down to being patient enough to wait until they miss all their critical hits and you land one of yours. I don't even buy +luck epics when I find them in the shops...
  #4  
Old 19th April 2011, 09:17 PM
Xodidumdum Xodidumdum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sWiTcHeR View Post
yo xodi, reading your expert advice sometimes makes me feel like i'm about to witness some quantam shit!

i personally hate luck items but if you look at demon who's in the top 12, he has a +945 epic luck item so im assuming it must be working for him

youve run 30ooo data points in an f-model.... err, what does that mean exactly?

i love you though
While it may work for him, I still don’t think it does. Look at his relative base stats as compared to others near his level, and you’ll see they are significantly higher, meaning he has more base stats than many others. Also, you’ll see his dungeons completed relative to his level is significantly lower than other people (including warriors) around him. At 164, 54 levels below him, I am only 40 dungeon levels (8 dungeon monsters) behind. I would honestly be interested in seeing how he does with other item types in the same slot, because the way I see it (+all stats>3 stats>pure str>pure con>luck epic>pure dex>pure int>pure luck) with his stats.

The marginal returns on luck appear to be completely balls.
  #5  
Old 19th April 2011, 10:24 PM
Xodidumdum Xodidumdum is offline
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-test means I attack the same 2-3 targets repeatedly (multi-variant with one control) (spent about 350 shrooms on this so far, it was the reason I took my weapon off before, because I wanted to at least get some gold out of it in the process when I ran round 2), and plot out the average results for each round.

I rotated between all stats, 3 stat, pure str, and a luck epic in my neck slot, while attacking the hell out of Giant Jim (174 warrior), Kinia (177 mage), and Seascha (180 scout), back when I was 157-159.

120 datapoints per round per character was more than enough to provide a set of data that is well beyond the boundaries of the random number generator, and allows for trending.

What I found was that an increase in luck of 815 (nearly 13% in one item), resulted in an increase of my damage dealt of LESS than 2%. 13% more critical hits from 27% (the base low value), SHOULD result in a 10-11% increase in damage. It resulted in 2%. 320 STR resulted in an increase of 8.3% (the value I expected) in round one, and against a warrior, that 8.3% held pretty steady. However, the benefit was closer to 15% by round 3 against a scout or mage, and nearly 25% in round 4. All stat (157 stats) items provided an added benefit of reducing the damage I took from scouts (2.4%) and mages (3.9%), while also increasing my damage dealt by about half of the str item, and increasing my health by approximately 5%.

3 stat items (184 stats) provided a 6% bonus to health, and about a 5% increase in damage dealt.

But here, to base it for you:
A pure item is one that has approximately 2*your level in that stat.
All stats items have 1*your level in every stat
3 stat items have 1.2*your level in your primary stat, con, and luck

Stat and Resultant Effect over not wearing an item in that slot:
Pure Str: [(your str + item str)/(your str) – 1 ] *100 percent increase in damage done in round 1. This increases against classes other than your own. (will generally be between 6 and 9%)
Pure Con: [(your con + item con)/(your con) -1] *100 percent increase in health (will generally be between 14 and 20%)
Pure Int: Roughly a 6-7% decrease in damage taken from mages over the course of a 3-4 round fight.
Pure Dex: Roughly a 18% decrease in damage taken from scouts over the course of a 3-4 round fight.
Pure Luck: Roughly a 0.78% increase in damage done.

Based on this, my conclusion was that
All stat epics>3 stat epics>pure main stat>pure con>pure dex> pure int> luck epic > pure luck

i.e luck items are garbage
  #6  
Old 19th April 2011, 11:46 PM
Xodidumdum Xodidumdum is offline
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To put things into perspective:
All stats item = 2.41 effective points
3 stats item = 2.08 effective points
pure main stat = 2.00 effective points
pure con = 1.22 effective points
pure dex = .68 effective points
pure int = .59 effective points
luck EPIC = .54 effective points
pure luck item = .21 effective points

These values change depending on your base, in that once you have 4 all stats items on, pure main becomes greater than all stats. At 4 all stats and 1-2 3 stat items, pure main stat becomes the best from that point on, but the point stands.
  #7  
Old 20th April 2011, 03:51 AM
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ScrawnyRat ScrawnyRat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xodidumdum View Post
Based on this, my conclusion was that
All stat epics>3 stat epics>pure main stat>pure con>pure dex> pure int> luck epic > pure luck
I agree with that, though my "testing" has not been as strenuous as yours. The main thing I've noticed is that when I attack people of the same level and class in the arena, if my primary stat is >10% higher than theirs I will win the battle the vast majority of the time even if they have 50% luck (mine is low 20%). Given that those points in luck could have been invested towards having equivalent luck and primary stat to mine (where the battle would be 50-50 depending on con and, incredibly, *luck*), I think it's clear that luck is a largely irrelevant stat. I ignore the luck aspect on 3 stat epics when comparing with pure main stat/pure con items in quests/shops as I level up - as far as I'm concerned a 3 stat epic is actually a 2 stat epic, and therefore significantly worse than a +all.

One of my guild mates was a 50% luck toon, and was struggling both in the arena and the dungeons. I suggested she sell all the +luck epics, buy +primary stat and +con, and now she's second highest ranked in the guild despite being only 4th in terms of level (and is tie 3rd in dungeons one back off second). +Luck = fail.

I suggested in the "suggestions" thread that they removed what I called "unlucky luck" for this reason. If you hit your luck, you *must* deal at least maximum damage with your weapon. Then luck becomes interesting again.
  #8  
Old 24th April 2011, 03:53 AM
didndot didndot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xodidumdum View Post
Based on this, my conclusion was that
All stat epics>3 stat epics>pure main stat>pure con>pure dex> pure int> luck epic > pure luck

i.e luck items are garbage
yeah, luck items were only fun for me sub 100. ive said for the longest time that luck is a garbage stat that shouldnt be relied on. but more recently ive seen its values again... people with 10% more luck but almost 1k less main stat, it can be a tossup who will win in the arena.

mmm... i'd say its 3 stat>all stat>pure main stat>main stat + con>luck epic> pure con> rest. Look at darkenrahl (grats on blowing 1k+ shrooms refreshing the shops for that)... everything = 3 stat. you get more outta those additional points in your 3 primary attributes than throwing it into your resistances b/c they're used across the board rather than just 1 particular class.

but regarding top 15 or so... its moreso just about levels up here, since you get honor from levelling (dumb, imo). the only people that consistently attack, even before our merge, have been darkenrahl & paolino... then more recently nathax (fyi = the godfather, now), but not as much as the previous 2. I'll see an attack from demon maybe once every few weeks. but its silly really...for example, darkenrahl will just blow a ton of mushrooms to hold #1 for a few hours, only to get it taken away soon. it's been this way for months and has just come down to who got here first & has stayed consistent w/ doing 300 thirst. anyways, my point is... its not hard for demon to hold his top position just b/c of the way honor works + how small this server is.... it doesn't take much effort.
  #9  
Old 16th May 2011, 08:11 PM
Knytul Knytul is offline
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im gonna disagree with this a little bit based on our own testing. Luck does have some usage to it, but not before level 150. Only pre 150, luck should come from spare gold after con and primary stat are bought. But pre 150, luck items dont have that much weight, if any.
 

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